Curse

gr3g · Sep 05, 2006, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Domino

I think A-net is flirting with a slippery slope here, and it's only a matter of time before more powerful features become "pay to own" instead of "earn to own".... I wouldn't even call it a matter of if, but a matter of when.

I think you are confusing several different forces into glib phrases. Let me try to unmash the issue slightly:

Paying to unlock primarily PvP content: What these skill unlock packs do. Note that this category does not include earnable PvP content such as fame or faction points and PvP titles, which is point 2:
Paying to obtain earnable PvP content: This will kill the game overnight, so it will never happen. No matter how much you think ArenaNet or NCSoft are money grubbing corporations, you have to agree that they are not stupid.
Paying to obtain earnable PvE content: What many fear will result from 1. In this category are such things as paying to obtain money, 15k/FoW armor, rare greens, etc. This is perhaps a gray area because you can then use your bought money to buy yourself drunkard titles and stuff, which is clearly undesirable. But there is some room for good sense to prevail here.
Paying to obtain non-earnable but balanced PvE content: What is mostly undiscussed in this thread, but as such presents fewer ethical problems than 3 above. In this category are such things as paying for brand new weapon skins, face models, armor models, etc. I personally don't have any problem with this category as this content will be purely classified as "extra". I never bought any of the prerelease packs and I don't find myself pining for the Spiritbinder that I can never have.
Paying to obtain unbalanced PvE content: What I expect will never happen as long as the PvE-PvP coupling remains intact, but it is definitely a possibility. Many PvE players will be happy with this, I expect.
Paying to obtain unbalanced PvP content such as weapons or armor: What will kill the game the moment it's implemented.

Yukito Kunisaki · Sep 05, 2006, 07:26 AM // 07:26

Losers...

If you're afraid of a newbie [hint, noobie, someone who does NOT now how to play this game...] can just BUY their skills and then become more able to kill and win than yourself, you obviously need to reconsider wtf you're doing and stop whining like a baby.

I don't need 450 skills to kick your asses. I'm already running championship builds using barely 150... or rather, 100...

Yeesh... Buy a clue, not more skills...

Minus Sign · Sep 05, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Is that what you want MONTHLY FEES, because that is what will happen if they can't make money somehow!!!.

Ah yes. The primary argument of most people supporting this latest decision. We don't pay monthly fees so they have to get money from us somehow right?

DID YOU STEAL THE GAME??? DID THEY LOAD IT UP ON YOUR PC FREE OF CHARGE??? They are making money off us. About 80 million dollars gross on games sales if prices are comparable across international lines. That's not pulling numbers out of my rear; thats mulitplying the 2 million copies of GW Anet reports sold by $40. If the people running Anet can't make, distribute and manage 3 games (I'm including NightFall) then you need to stop asking them to take more of your moeny and start asking them what the RED ENGINE GORED they are doing with the money you already gave them.

I'm going to be frank with those of you fearing the monthly fee in Guild Wars: guild Wars is an extremely dumbed down version of MMOs that require mothly fees to opperate. From graphics to gameplay interface to player customizability to the game world itself, the first Everquest--a seven year old game--blows Guild Wars out of the water every time. Everquest 2--still years older than GW--would be like comparing a tinker toy to PS3.

Lower game quality and bare bones character customizabilty are the price you've payed for no monthly fees. Guild Wars and Anet are hardly the first gaming industry to offer free online servers either; their just the first ORPG...and not the last.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

...it is not about what you want, it's about making money...

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Mimi Miyagi · Sep 05, 2006, 05:30 PM // 17:30

I'm not going to read all 28 pages of this thread, but...

I stopped playing GW months ago. I used to be the BIGGEST homer of the game. I've finished the game (both chapters) with seven different characters.

Think about how much PVE that is.

I've also done more than my share of PVP, including GvG, HA, RA, etc.

And it's just too much.

Probably the part that got to me the most was the developers starting to sell character slots. At that time, I complained about how they were attempting to milk every last red penny they could out of the franchise. I also predicted that there was more to come, that if they could think of other ways to squeeze the player base for their hard earned cash, they will.

Well, here it is. Phase 2.

I spent months searching for bosses across all of tyria and cantha capping skills. I painstakenly crossed each elite off my list, until I had capped every single core profession's skills one by one. This means having to endure such painful runs as the northern shiverpeaks around copperhammer mines, going up to dreadnoughts drift for FoC. Redoing mineral springs over and over because of jerks dropping as soon as they cap the skill THEY needed.

It was a self satisfying accomplishment.

Now, poof, it's all meaningless. All that work now can be bought by anyone with a credit card.

Next, it'll be buying FoW armor "sets". Or Rank emotes. Whatever. Trust me, this isn't the last thing you'll be scrambling to pay for, in addition to the boxed collectors editions to get the next mini-pet, or skill pin sets.

Also, for folks discussing how much money NCSoft has made off GW - you're right, it's a HUGE amount of money. But the game doesn't exist in a vacumn - anyone play Auto Assault lately? This is a case where GW is covering NCSoft's major miscues in other titles. You'[re essentially paying for other failures.

So, expect to see this activity continue, and get even more ridiculous.

Sir Skullcrasher · Sep 05, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

I seriously don't give a damn about capping skills now. Since this update, i know that i can buy it from the store so that i can make any pvp characters i wanted. The only reason now to buy cap signet is to get those skills that is useful in pve.

Numa Pompilius · Sep 05, 2006, 06:48 PM // 18:48

This has to be the stoopedest issue in the whole of Guildwars history.

Of all completely pointless things there are in the world to be upset about, people chose to be upset by how other people obtain skills?

You can buy this clue in the in game store for $9.99: It doesn't concern you and is none of your business how other people chose play their game.

Deal with it.

EPO Bot · Sep 05, 2006, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Buying the unlock pack is like ordering a pizza and then paying the delivery guy to eat it for you.

Gigashadow · Sep 05, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

If you are going to be competitive in PvP at the top levels, you need to use a PvE character anyway, so that you can keep multiple sets of armor in your inventory (like the +35 health set vs spike or degen teams), as well as have a big set of weapons in your inventory, for every occasion. There are also various items you cannot create on PvP characters (e.g. shield of +30 health, +10ar vs lightning), so there are still advantages to PvE characters.

Doomslay · Sep 05, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I for one, are glad they did it, Now I won't have to listen to all the PVPers WHINING about having to collect skills. and on top of it they get to spend more money for something I got free SWEET !!!!

aron searle · Sep 05, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Probably the part that got to me the most was the developers starting to sell character slots. At that time, I complained about how they were attempting to milk every last red penny they could out of the franchise. I also predicted that there was more to come, that if they could think of other ways to squeeze the player base for their hard earned cash, they will.

Who cares, we asked for the option to buy slots we got it, i never had a problem with 4 slots for 1 game, that is personall opinion but its hardly milking us to the last penny.

Quote:

I spent months searching for bosses across all of tyria and cantha capping skills. I painstakenly crossed each elite off my list, until I had capped every single core profession's skills one by one. This means having to endure such painful runs as the northern shiverpeaks around copperhammer mines, going up to dreadnoughts drift for FoC. Redoing mineral springs over and over because of jerks dropping as soon as they cap the skill THEY needed.

Clearly you didnt enjoy it, so why did you do it at all, sadism?

Im not just flaming from the hip, what kind of an accomplishment is that, i learnt to play the piano, i learnt to drive, i donated blood, i sat and pointlessly grinded and capped skills whilst not enjoying it, just so i could say id done it. Obviosly we will not agree on this, 2 different mind sets.

Im just showing you what the other side feels, there is no accomplishent from unlocking skills. its boring, it holds no satisfaction, it feels like work, its nothing but a means to an end, and that is to......

Quote:

Now, poof, it's all meaningless. All that work now can be bought by anyone with a credit card.

The accomplishment and satisfaction comes from making/trying a new build and pulling it off with some degree of skill.

ANYONE with enough time can cap them, few can use them effectivly.

(no im not claiming to be leet)

Surely THATS where the satisfaction should come from, not knowing you have 415 unlocked and the other person has 300, but by using what you have BETTER than the other guy.

Marth Reynolds · Sep 05, 2006, 08:37 PM // 20:37

It's a way for the less active members to unlock skills they want to try but paying for it is a bit to farfetched IMO....

Cjlr · Sep 05, 2006, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Probably the part that got to me the most was the developers starting to sell character slots. At that time, I complained about how they were attempting to milk every last red penny they could out of the franchise. I also predicted that there was more to come, that if they could think of other ways to squeeze the player base for their hard earned cash, they will.

That's just silly. Squeezing money out of people means forcing them to pay. Like, "we're upgrading our servers, pay us $15 or we'll ban your account". That kind of thing doesn't generally go over well - unless the $15-per-remaining player comes to a greater total than the potential earnings from the players turned off by it, it's not financially sound. Offering optional items for optional purchase doesn't do that.

Quote:

Well, here it is. Phase 2.

I spent months searching for bosses across all of tyria and cantha capping skills. I painstakenly crossed each elite off my list, until I had capped every single core profession's skills one by one. This means having to endure such painful runs as the northern shiverpeaks around copperhammer mines, going up to dreadnoughts drift for FoC. Redoing mineral springs over and over because of jerks dropping as soon as they cap the skill THEY needed.

It was a self satisfying accomplishment.

Now, poof, it's all meaningless. All that work now can be bought by anyone with a credit card.

Next, it'll be buying FoW armor "sets". Or Rank emotes. Whatever. Trust me, this isn't the last thing you'll be scrambling to pay for, in addition to the boxed collectors editions to get the next mini-pet, or skill pin sets.

There are three kinds of things they can sell. 1: those that are optional, and make a difference. 2: those that are optional, and don't make a difference. And 3: those that are essential Account keys, for starters, but depending on how you look at it, UAS +/- UAX as well. For a serious PvP player, skill unlocks are pretty much essential - you need to have (virtually) every skill unlocked and available. This isn't free - like anything, it has its costs. There used to be only one way to pay for it: time. Time is money. You already bought your UAS if you manually unlocked every skill - bought it with time. Again, Time = Money. In this context the two are interchangeable. One can be substituted for the other.

The store has offered two things so far. The first is character slots - which are optional. Having more character slots does not make you a better player or give you any advantage, so they belong to the second category. The second is of course skill unlocks - which, to the serious PvP player, are not optional, putting it in the third category. All this does is allow our aspiring gladiator to spend his hard-earned cash as opposed to his hard-earned leisure time.

As for the other things you mentioned, I couldn't care less if they sold skill pins, mini-pets, or FoW armour. All of the above are functionally useless. They make no difference. They're extraneous. They're superficial. They're essentially pointless. I can't say that enough times. Buy them, buy them not, I don't care. What'd be the point?

According to ANet's philosophy, there are no category 1 items in Guild Wars and never will be. Category 2 items, they can sell by the boatload - I for one won't care. Category 3 items are harder to work out, but as long as they restrict themselves to letting players invest money instead of time for already-existing items, I won't care about that one either.

Chris Blackstar · Sep 06, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Hey it's a choice to buy skills or not, and it really doesn't matter how they are obtained, we all have the option.

Now most players will not excersise that option, because we have most of the skills, and know we can unlock them with faction or gold, so we are not effected, we also know how to play the game and are constantly honing our skills.

So what is the big deal!!! People lose the dam pride argument, and move on already.

I can see now this is not about money or greed or anything else besides a players PRIDE.

Don't like the idea, fine don't buy the skills. They are not forcing you too, but then again how many of you complain about ebay selling gold, as much as you complain about this subject. That is a far worse thing then selling skills that only effect one part of the game, PvP.

And I know for a fact that if Anet really wanted to piss you off, they would add the FoW armor skin to PvP character creation process, not sell it.

Some of you really need to go to school and learn how a business operates, because I can see that you think that once you buy a game it means you own everything or can dictate everything (Wrong). You want to make a real change, then quit complaining and orginize a BOYCOTT, that will make them listen.

Otherwise stop waving your fists in anger, swallow your pride and start playing again or move on.

SilentAssassin · Sep 06, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

I'm not going to read all 28 pages of this thread, but...

I stopped playing GW months ago. I used to be the BIGGEST homer of the game. I've finished the game (both chapters) with seven different characters.

Think about how much PVE that is.

I've also done more than my share of PVP, including GvG, HA, RA, etc.

And it's just too much.

Probably the part that got to me the most was the developers starting to sell character slots. At that time, I complained about how they were attempting to milk every last red penny they could out of the franchise. I also predicted that there was more to come, that if they could think of other ways to squeeze the player base for their hard earned cash, they will.

Well, here it is. Phase 2.

I spent months searching for bosses across all of tyria and cantha capping skills. I painstakenly crossed each elite off my list, until I had capped every single core profession's skills one by one. This means having to endure such painful runs as the northern shiverpeaks around copperhammer mines, going up to dreadnoughts drift for FoC. Redoing mineral springs over and over because of jerks dropping as soon as they cap the skill THEY needed.

It was a self satisfying accomplishment.

Now, poof, it's all meaningless. All that work now can be bought by anyone with a credit card.

Next, it'll be buying FoW armor "sets". Or Rank emotes. Whatever. Trust me, this isn't the last thing you'll be scrambling to pay for, in addition to the boxed collectors editions to get the next mini-pet, or skill pin sets.

Also, for folks discussing how much money NCSoft has made off GW - you're right, it's a HUGE amount of money. But the game doesn't exist in a vacumn - anyone play Auto Assault lately? This is a case where GW is covering NCSoft's major miscues in other titles. You'[re essentially paying for other failures.

So, expect to see this activity continue, and get even more ridiculous.

Thats just bs... sry, but don't got any other word for it.

Char slots: I am sooo darn happy I can buy more char slots, finally I could make a MM for only 8 euros. Does it concern you that ppl like to buy more slots, you can't expect them to give you unlimited server space.

and this whole discussion of these unlock packs is just plain ridiculous.

Some questions you need to ask yourself:

Does having all skills make you a good PvP player? No, even ppl who have unlocked 8 skills can overpower you.

Does it bother you that some ppl only like the PvP aspect of the game and hate it to go through the PvE content more then once to get all skills? No, only thing that matters is that YOU enjoy the game and how YOU do this has nothing to do how others do it.

What ppl need to understand is that you only have to look at how can I have fun with this game, not how others enjoy/play the game. This is just a game.. nothing more (k, this game is best ever made, thats what I think) if you don't like it, don't whine and quit, if you love the game but have some issues with it then you form a decent discussion.

Another discussion that has been thrown up is the discussion of that Anet is a bussiness, well... offcourse it is, but that doesn't mean that they will try to make money out of everything. If it wasn't about the major requests of the player base (that means YOU) they wouldn't have added this online store, but it was because WE asked for char slots, because the PvP players asked for a way to get fully unlocked without going through the whole darn game many times that they added this feature. So leave the discussion about Anet beeing a bussiness, everyone just has to keep in mind that you can't get everything for free.

So what do we realise, well we realise that it doesn't matter what ppl think of your play style, as long as you enjoy it, nothing matters (when its not illegal offcourse).

Makes me think of my filo courses

Stockholm · Sep 06, 2006, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Don't like the idea, fine don't buy the skills. They are not forcing you too, but then again how many of you complain about ebay selling gold, as much as you complain about this subject. That is a far worse thing then selling skills that only effect one part of the game, PvP.

There is plenty of threads on that subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

And I know for a fact that if Anet really wanted to piss you off, they would add the FoW armor skin to PvP character creation process, not sell it.

Makes no diffrence, it's allready for sale on e-bay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

Otherwise stop waving your fists in anger, swallow your pride and start playing again or move on.

Sounds like one of A-nets backside lickers, you get browni points for posting here?

Wrynn · Sep 06, 2006, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by gr3g

I think you are confusing several different forces into glib phrases. Let me try to unmash the issue slightly:

Paying to unlock primarily PvP content: What these skill unlock packs do. Note that this category does not include earnable PvP content such as fame or faction points and PvP titles, which is point 2:
Paying to obtain earnable PvP content: This will kill the game overnight, so it will never happen. No matter how much you think ArenaNet or NCSoft are money grubbing corporations, you have to agree that they are not stupid.
Paying to obtain earnable PvE content: What many fear will result from 1. In this category are such things as paying to obtain money, 15k/FoW armor, rare greens, etc. This is perhaps a gray area because you can then use your bought money to buy yourself drunkard titles and stuff, which is clearly undesirable. But there is some room for good sense to prevail here.
Paying to obtain non-earnable but balanced PvE content: What is mostly undiscussed in this thread, but as such presents fewer ethical problems than 3 above. In this category are such things as paying for brand new weapon skins, face models, armor models, etc. I personally don't have any problem with this category as this content will be purely classified as "extra". I never bought any of the prerelease packs and I don't find myself pining for the Spiritbinder that I can never have.
Paying to obtain unbalanced PvE content: What I expect will never happen as long as the PvE-PvP coupling remains intact, but it is definitely a possibility. Many PvE players will be happy with this, I expect.
Paying to obtain unbalanced PvP content such as weapons or armor: What will kill the game the moment it's implemented.

Honestly, I think this is the best reponse ive seen so far.
All of you naysayers need to wake up.
So what that they sell skill packs?
This doesnt change one single thing in the game but allow people to roll more complex pvp characters quicker.
Last I checked, almost every single top guild has players ON PVE CHARACTERS PVPING. Why? The answer is quite simple, pvp characters just arent able to be versatile in game. Ranger with only two bows? warrior with only two weapons and only two shields/offhands?

So what does this change in the current state of the game? Nothing.
Not a single thing. People will still roll pvps on that rare occasion that they need one. And more often than not they will use their specced out, tricked out pve characters, and not just for the style factor, but simply because, in a situation thats as dynamic as the high end pvp in guild wars, having that extreme versatility in game is without compare.

Ive been messing around on an alt account, getting some fame, and you know what? To me, not being on my pve monk is like crimes against.... i dunno, something important.

I PERSONALLY will not ever buy the skill packs, because I dont need them, I enjoy new pve content enough to go out of my way to make sure I get all the new monk skills I need to stay current in pvp (and any secondary skills or elites as well).

All of you against this, not one of you has put up a suitable argument against it. You are acting like these skill packs, if you purchase the warrior one, you shall become Bloodlight Paladin! or buy the monk one and now you are Stepn Wedding, or some equally stupid BS like that.

sassoonssamson · Sep 06, 2006, 10:05 AM // 10:05

i prefer to cap its more fun

dark · Sep 06, 2006, 11:04 AM // 11:04

@wrynn... i know pve vs pve has been talked before... but you can buy your victo's (just to say one) for pvp char then customize it in guild hall (if you
have the weapon guy)... now you have more than 2 sets...

Sooner or later ha will be filled again (overpopulated i mean) with sellers

i'm sure they'll soon will add an armor switcher/crafter in the gh... so more sets for pvp chars

secondary prof changer is already in temple... hope that he will come soon in GH...

anyway skill unlock pack mean nothing to me... capping skills and items is fun (even frustrating sometimes... mineral sping anyone?)... that's only another way to allow lazy players to unlock skills... btw... i hope (but i fear so) we will never see a 15k kurzik monk or fow ele armors available as off-game object buyable by anyone ...

shadowfell · Sep 06, 2006, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Has anyone else noticed the second a dissaproving view of arena nets action is taken in a thread, a wave of newly registered/seldom posting, people wash up to talk about how wonderful AN is, and how ingenious they must be for such and such activity? (I mean, aside from the usual ball holders)

Ninna · Sep 06, 2006, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mimi Miyagi

Probably the part that got to me the most was the developers starting to sell character slots.

Character slots SAVED me cash

I bought 2 accounts when Prophecies was released because I wanted to play all 6 Core classes PVE (without deleting)

when Factions was released - I only bought 1 copy
(my 2nd account was not upgraded)

when character slots were announced I bought 3 slots
this was *still cheaper* than buying another copy of Factions for my 2nd acct

the best part of Character slots?
- my 9 character slots are valid for all future chapters on soley one account to upgrade
- skill unlocks are valid for the *same account*

before character slots,
I would have had to buy future chapters for both of my accounts

complaining about extra Character slots is short sighted

what would you rather do?
buy multiple accounts and upgrade them all with each chapter?!?